Built 5862 I Just Wanna Go Fast (Formerly Known as Mazdazilla's Build Thread Thingy)

Mud bogging. Mazda 6, Bigfoot edition vs. Grave Digger edition.

 

In for the jealousy of the DM FoST adapter.

 

Well, still no news from my fab guy...

I'm sick of looking at the car in the garage so I chopped the downpipe to get it off the ground and I'm going to start tuning tomorrow provided the weather cooperates. Just want to get the CL stuff done, will do the OL stuff after I get my dump tubes on the car.




[doublepost=1465326421][/doublepost]Well took it out for a little spin around the block. Builds 6psi like it's no ones business. First mini pull was in 1st started at about 2k and let off around 5k. Had 6psi pretty fast and held it just fine from what I saw. I am excited to get this thing going! Got some fresh gas in it today and going to settle in the fuel trims this weekend.

(sorry for the wind noise, still need to get an external mic)

 

Sounds like a tractor

 

Can I just post this in here? haha




Glad to see you got it running man.

 

Lol thanks. I'm excited for this year! Will be the first time the car has been running properly in a while.

 

Well, car is together! Fab guy came around last night and dropped off my dumps as well as finished up my downpipe. Just need to change the oil and set the toe and begin tuning!




[doublepost=1465782913][/doublepost]So I took the car out with my roommate today and we put around 30 miles on it. Car sounds fantastic and it's crazy loud once the gates open. Fuel trims are lean, runs a bit lean at WOT (12.5:1 when I'm targeting 11.8) and I'm contributing that to the MAF cal and changing my intake but it also might be partially because of the intake mani flowing better than stock. It builds boost pretty decently, it plateaus right at 4k. It might seem a bit slow to some but remember this housing is a 1.25 a/r so it's pretty large, I'm still interested in stepping down to a 1.0 after it's released. It was flowing almost 32lbs/min of air at only 11psi. This is good because it seems to be pretty efficient, but I'm concerned because my wastegate springs are both 6psi springs. It shouldn't be almost twice spring pressure. The only thing I can think of is that it's just a large turbo and it's not going to want to make that low of boost. It's still a bit disconcerting to see it jump that high though. If anyone has any insight on this it'd be greatly appreciated.

 

Ok well long time no update, again. Anyway, the boost is okay. After taking more logs, the boost gets to 8 and creeps to 11 by redline so it's just because the turbo's big to be running that low of boost on it. I've got the car mostly together and it runs great, only issue is now I'm running lean at WOT by like a point. So targeting 12 puts me at 13, I've done some tests and ran my tune by a couple of people and I think it's a hardware issue with the intake so I'm going to go over that tomorrow. I'm really loving how the car reacts right now and it build boost pretty quickly for a turbo this large on a 1.25 A/R housing.

Also, I finally finished piecing together my fuel kit after being sent the wrong parts and ordering the wrong parts and having a bunch of personal stuff come up over the summer really has sent me back on getting this done but now it is and once I get my lean issue fixed I'll begin testing with it. Here it is:

I’m calling it a throttle body spray kit. I was hoping to have this done a while ago but a lot of surprises good and bad popped up this summer that put car projects on the sideline. Anyway, the concept behind it is that it takes most of the positives of meth injection and PI kits without some of the turnoffs associated with them.

The pros that it shares with a meth kit is that it sprays early enough in the air stream to have a small cooling effect, it’s not horribly expensive, and it’s relatively easy to tune for. Some of the drawbacks that it DOES NOT have from a meth kit is that there is no separate fuel tank; since it gets gas from the fuel feed line you only need to worry about filling your main tank, there’s no secondary pump; so there’s much less wiring and you don’t have to worry about a pump failing.

Some of the pros that it shares with a PI kit is that it uses gas (or ethanol depending on what you run), and it can supply a fairly large amount of fuel. The two nozzles that I’m starting out with are good enough for around 100hp on paper. Some of the drawbacks that it DOES NOT have from a PI kit is that there is no secondary controller so there is much less wiring work and you don’t have to tune a second computer. Also, it doesn’t cost nearly as much as a full PI kit and doesn’t require an aftermarket intake manifold or a modified stock manifold to be used.

The potential drawbacks that’s I’ve thought of: in order to flow enough fuel for lots of power will increase cost since more nozzles will have to be added, atomization might not be as great as I hope but that can be helped by stepping down in nozzle size or increasing the fuel pressure, and I don’t know how responsive the system will be, it not be fast enough to supply enough fuel in time if the system is strained hard and the system has to provide a lot of fuel (like 200hp+ worth of fuel).

Overall, it’s relatively simple. Fuel is tee’d off from the HPFP supply line and sent to a special gasoline solenoid. The gasoline solenoid is controlled electronically by a Hobb’s switch (which I still have to wire in). When the Hobb’s switch sees boost pressure it closes the circuit which allows the solenoid to open and fuel flows through it into the distribution block and from there to each nozzle where it gets sprayed into the intake stream. Both the solenoid and Hobb’s switch are normally closed so if either should fail there is no unwanted fuel spraying and no chance of hydrolocking the engine. As long as proper electrical connections are made that should never be an issue though. Also the Hobb’s switch is adjustable, so it can be set to open the solenoid at different pressures.

 

That's a really cool option! Do you/did you have to upgrade your ITFP? Also, how are you liking the Damond FoST intake? I really like it, but what Corksport is releasing has some added benefits, even though it doesn't flow quite as much, cost and compatibility with stock hotpipes/coldpipes being one of the major (and cost-saving).

 

What kind of cost are you looking at for that whole set up? Im curious how it compares to my budget PI system.

Overall I like the idea. What are the "nozzles"? I assume they are just that vs actual injectors. Do they just spray like meth does (always on when crossing a boost threshold) and not puled like injectors are?

One point too, you do get chemical cooling with a PI system, but you dont see it as its after the MAP sensor. It may not have as much time to mix in with the air, but its still happening, and the atomization of injectors is very good. People seem to forget that the injectors are after the MAP and that things are happening, you just cant see it. (I assume this point wasnt lost on you though)

 

Thanks. I'm still on the stock ITFP, I'm planning on compressing the regulator a bit to increase pressure a bit before I go to a bigger pump. I love the manifold setup. Flow (as you already know) is amazingly balanced which is good because I won't have to run a direct port kit for this, originally I was going to get the spacer tapped for meth nozzles but after seeing how evenly the mani flows there wasn't much point and it'd of been a good amount more expensive, plus the MAP sensor wouldn't pick up the lower BAT temps. Compatibility with stock pipes isn't a concern to me because honestly, it's very easy (and not expensive) to find someone to weld you a set of charge pipes. Lastly, I'm not sure how evenly the CS manifold flows since I haven't seen any data from it but I don't think it'll be as even as this because the throttle position is still on the side of the plenum.

A thrifty person could assemble what I've made for under $300. It cost me a little more than that because of some small trial and error stuff I went through with it.

Currently the nozzles are meth nozzles from a well known company but I do plan to test others. Atomization is paramount to this because I can always add flow by adding more nozzles. And yes, they are always on. Once the Hobb's switch sees the pressure that it's set to it closes the circuit to the solenoid and a constant stream of fuel is sent to the nozzles (like a meth kit). I've been trying to think of a way to make the system more progressive but short of adding a second switch (set at a different pressure) and solenoid for a different set of nozzles, I haven't thought of anything else.

PI definitely lowers BATs and it would be really nice if the MAP sensor saw it but it's not the end of the world. As I said, atomization is top priority for this and injectors are definitely better at atomizing fuel than a nozzle ever will be, and they're much more controllable. Also, the better the atomization in the air stream, the cooler the BATs will get. But the tradeoffs to PI are a more complex system and cost.

 

Actually, even though the CS doesn't flow ~330 cfm/runner (it's ~275 instead), the flow imbalance works out to about only ~1.5% for the CS IM. The FoST flow imbalance is ~2.5% http://www.focusst.org/forum/speed-perf6rmanc3/25992-stock-intake-manifold-flow-data.html. Regardless, it's so close that I'm sure there's zero practical implications:


And regarding your quasi-PI setup, why not use a MAP-based progressive methanol controller to set beginning and full flow points? A DVC-30, the AEM equivalent, or the CMGS from Cooling Mist outta do the trick, but I don't think there's two ways about it - the controllers control a pump, so you'd need to source a gasoline/ethanol compatible pump that worked with the voltage range output of the controller.

A very inexpensive alternative is to use a boost switch, like Cooling Mist's: https://www.coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.aspx?pid=09 The only thing about that is it's either off or on, no progressiveness at all. But if you think about it, you only need the extra fuel up top anyways, in terms of IDCs. Is that your purpose for the kit - greater injector headroom? If so, you could set the switch to 75-80% of your tune's max boost level, then it'd turn on right when you start needing it. This should make it be a smooth transition (so much air and fuel are flowing already).

I use a boost switch set at 15psi with my BNR S3 setup running 22psi on 93 and 25psi on E28. Works great! If I went bigger turbo (and therefore bigger or more nozzles), I probably would get a progressive controller though.

 

Yeah I guessed around $500 for the kit in my mental math. But I also included a in-tank fuel pump. I think its a good upgrade for any car doing anything more than the stock fuel system.

I will be curious to see what kind of power you can get out of this over what the stock system will do. One advantage of meth over this is the better cooling properties of methanol and the high octane rating. With 93 are you worried at all about your car being KR limited before its fuel limited?

 

If it were me, I'd add this into the mix. So I'd have E28 in the tank, a CM10 spraying 100% (but maybe could go down to 50/50 if I implemented this), then this system tapped into each runner on my stock IM.

 

I mean right now I have hooked up on my car (but not all running at once) the stock system, a PI system with four 630cc injectors and a throttle body plate with a DO10 and DO7 Nozzle with 100% meth in the tank.

All I have is my DD tune right now at about 400 with low IDC running just the stock and PI injectors. If I use E85 I might never need the meth.

 

Never saw those results, but they're very good!

The need for a pump is exactly why I opted out of using one of those progressive controllers. It'd just about double the cost which isn't worth it IMO.

That's essentially what I'm using right now, it's a Hobb's switch with a male 1/8 npt threading integrated into it so it threads directly into the vacuum block that comes with the DM mani kit. It's adjustable from 4psi upwards (don't know where it caps off).

Yea if the testing goes good, I'm thinking about piecing together some kits to sell. The intended audience is people who want more than what the stock fuel system can give without wanting to fuss around with a meth kit or spend the money for a PI system.

I don't have any goals currently with it, and I don't think I'll be able to push it to it's full extent since stock longblock. KR limit is definitely a concern. I think I'm going to try and find the KR limit since I believe it'll be around what the stock engine can reliably handle. If it's lower than what I think it is, then I'll move to an E30 mix and see how that does. After I get this all sorted, I'll resume my pursuit for larger DI injectors. My ultimate hope is that with this and larger DI injectors I can get to 700ish on full E85. Time will tell.


I have no idea how this would fare with a meth kit spraying at the same time.

 

Yeah, a boost-based/Hobbs switch is the way to go. And your ECU will use the wideband O2 to adjust AFR on the fly in O/L mode. Tune adjustments may be necessary though, depending on how much extra fuel you're injecting, which you probably already realize. The cool thing about using a high activation point (like 75-80% of max boost you run) is that the off/on transition is so smooth it's imperceptible. But if you're going to be injecting a LOT of extra fuel, progressiveness really is the way to go.

 

I'll definitely have to tune for it. It's just like tuning for a meth kit. I have LOTS of testing to do with it, there's still a lot of unknowns about how it will perform. I will keep that in mind when tuning though, thanks.

 

Yeah, Genpus' ECU capabilities/logic allow for a lot more wiggle room in extra fuel injection before tune adjustments are needed compared to Genwons and MS6es. I didn't have to scale the MAF at all until the CM10 100% point. I was fine at CM7 100%. That ~ +/-10% O/L fueling trim range really is helpful.

 

wait, all this work and you are still on the stock block?