Chirping noise only in specific fuel pressure range. Pu.

Discussion in 'Mazdaspeed 3 Troubleshooting' started by Funktionull, Jul 15, 2022.

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  1. Funktionull

    Funktionull Greenie Member

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    Used naphtha VM&P for cleaning. Redline for lubrication. Slight bit of Pennzoil Platinum 5-30 (what I'm running) on orings. Internals had no galling or scuffing, just very very black death colored. Looked new after cleaning.

    I could have POSSIBLY gotten too much engine oil on things that should have just been lubed with the redline but I'm not sure if that would cause an issue or not.

    The only thing I MAY have done incorrectly would be the keeper ring on the spill valve pin (kind of popped out) but only seemed to go back in 1 way (spring, pin seated over spring, keeper in the notch on the pin not on top of it and then the collar which was obvious. The tear down how to on here has the spill valve laid out spring>pin>keeper>collar but I couldn't see how it went that way.

    Edit : including a picture of what I mean with the layout of the spill valve vs how I put it in shown in red.

    And the damper has 2 rings and nothing states which side is up or down. One side has a groove, the other side is domed and smooth.

    Outside of those im confident everything else is exactly how it says it should be.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022
    Funktionull, via a mobile device, Jul 26, 2022
    #21
  2. Enki

    Enki Motorhead Platinum Member

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    Images from my most recent rebuild below, though it sounds like you did it correctly. One thing to note is the button spring can get sticky too, and if it is, it may not allow the pump to build pressure.

    For future reference, the only things you ever have to remove from the HPFP are the spill valve and the internals; the damper is just that and it doesn't matter if that gets sticky because all it does is let fuel compress it to even out the pulses.

    IMG_20220514_122737542.jpg

    IMG_20220514_122800054.jpg

    IMG_20220514_122619725.jpg

    IMG_20220514_122948800.jpg
     
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  3. Funktionull

    Funktionull Greenie Member

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    Would it be worth pulling the spill valve and checking that or just go full on tear down? I checked movement on the pin after the collar was in place and it seemed to move freely so I'm not sure.
     
    Funktionull, via a mobile device, Jul 26, 2022
    #23
  4. Enki

    Enki Motorhead Platinum Member

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    If you can thumb the needle on the spill valve and it doesn't resist before moving (like it would if it were sticky) then you've done an adequate job of cleaning it.
     
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  5. Funktionull

    Funktionull Greenie Member

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    Will take it back out and go over it again tomorrow after work and report back. In the meanwhile is there anything else you can think of that would cause low operating pressure in a situation where it passes a KOEO PRV test and shows proper tank pressure?
     
    Funktionull, via a mobile device, Jul 27, 2022
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  6. Enki

    Enki Motorhead Platinum Member

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    If the pump is askew, it will half stroke...Had it happen to me before and it might not be obvious.
     
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  7. Funktionull

    Funktionull Greenie Member

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    Went ahead and pulled it and tore it back down because insomnia.

    Edit: Fixed

    Spill valve was loose enough to spin the connector with a little force (apparently ok according to guides) put another ugga dugga on it until connector wouldn't move and pressure is fine.

    Did do another complete tear down and clean/oil so it was either loose spill valve or phantom problem I fixed by doing everything a 2nd time exactly the same.

    Don't know if the original chirping issue is gone. Will figure that out tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2022
    Funktionull, via a mobile device, Jul 27, 2022
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  8. Enki

    Enki Motorhead Platinum Member

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    I'd like to think that if it was due to the spill valve being loose and leaking fuel that you would have smelled it pretty quickly.
     
  9. Funktionull

    Funktionull Greenie Member

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    Logs looks fine. Everything seems good to go fueling wise. Original chirping noise problem still exists so it wasn't the fuel pump. I don't have a stethoscope or someone to sit and blip the throttle while I listen but with my ear as close as I can get it kind of sounds like its coming from around the coil packs. Who knows.
     
    Funktionull, via a mobile device, Jul 27, 2022
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  10. Enki

    Enki Motorhead Platinum Member

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    At least you can be certain the HPFP is perfect.
     
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  11. Funktionull

    Funktionull Greenie Member

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    Edit : For the best hope of someone being able to suggest things, if I ease into it, it sounds like a chirp down low and escalates to a "click" higher up and then an almost metal on metal "clank" right before it stops doing it entirely. Sometimes its just a chirp depending on how quickly I put load on it. During a coasting 3rd or 4th WOT pull it either happens so briefly I can't hear it or it doesn't happen at all. Of note, even when easing into it the "escalation" I'm talking about is maybe a second or 2 max.

    Procured a stethoscope. Sounded like a rattle in coil 3. Removed all the coil packs, new copper rods, checked (again again) the plugs per an early post and put it all back together and same thing.

    Also, whatever it is is either causing KR or triggering the sensor fairly frequently up around the mid 1s. The noise is so subtle stationary at idle that it sounds like its coming from everywhere. Theres a tiny TINY range when blipping the throttle where its audible enough to possibly track down. I just can't. Short of riding in the engine bay or paying for a dyno or finding a local NC Nator person who knows more than me who can listen to it I'm kind of at a loss.

    Pulls are fine, logs are fine(other than when it triggers some KR on the way past the range where its making that noise). Fuel trims are good. Hitting boost targets. No KR up top under load at all etc etc. ‍
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2022
    Funktionull, via a mobile device, Aug 1, 2022
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  12. Easter Bunny

    Easter Bunny Professional Engineer Motorhead Platinum Member

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    You might have to wait for it to get worse to solve it.
     
    Easter Bunny, via a mobile device, Aug 1, 2022
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  13. Funktionull

    Funktionull Greenie Member

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    Looking that way. Runs completely normal and I would normally be more ok with just letting it get worse but it renders the knock sensor basically useless.

    I can be coasting in vacuum and blip it through the range where its doing it and it might be sub 1.0 or 3s and 5s now. WOT pulls on my 93 and E40 map and after THAT KR its 0.00 across the board all the way to let off. I opened some logs just to look and the KR is happening in the cells before it even leaves vacuum so wisdom would say its just phantom knock from the sensor picking up whatever is making the noise.
     
    Funktionull, via a mobile device, Aug 2, 2022
    #33
  14. Funktionull

    Funktionull Greenie Member

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    Updating with a much better video.



    As you can hear and see as long as I hold it around 1000 psi (just the mark I'm using since no other parameter seems to be consistent) it makes the sound continuously. When I give it throttle it stops entirely and then does it momentarily after let off as it falls back through the spot where its happening.

    I did kind of notice a few other things. While it's doing it in vac (the only place it happens) it stops at around the throttle it would take to be barely at the vac/boost threshold and in the video kind of modulates along with that feathering of the throttle.

    Is there any way we are talking shaft play or otherwise turbo related issues and maybe when it starts to spool the centrifugal force is enough to balance the wobble out? Feel like I'm grasping at straws as this would have to be entirely a coincidence that it started at the same time I swapped plugs.

    Edit : that KR shown on the AP was in vac taking off in 1st gear and usually it will happen over and over as I recreate that noise but it just randomly didnt.
     
    Funktionull, via a mobile device, Aug 2, 2022
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  15. Funktionull

    Funktionull Greenie Member

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    @Enki

    So I spent 2 hours probing essentially the entire engine bay with a stethoscope and found by far the loudest area.

    Not saying it's the cause but it is roughly twice as loud where the high pressure line bolts to the fuel rail(exactly where shown in pic). I traced away on the hardline itself and it got quieter. Moving away on the fuel rail was the same story. Touching directly on that portion of the high pressure line sounds like metal slapping on metal.

    Line ruptured and was replaced about a week before plug swap for relevance. Unless I'm missing something its just a through feed line with no moving parts so I'm assuming its not the cause, its just orders of magnitude louder there than anywhere else. PRV being that close I probed it and it was still there but way more subtle.
     

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    Funktionull, via a mobile device, Aug 3, 2022
    #35
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  16. Enki

    Enki Motorhead Platinum Member

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    That's because direct injectors are noisy AF, and what you're hearing is likely the injectors firing. They are so loud, in fact, that the first gen cars shipped with a piece of foam that cradled the injectors and rail specifically to dampen these sounds; the second gen cars did not, as DI had become more commonplace by then.
     
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  17. Funktionull

    Funktionull Greenie Member

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    Updated original post with give up diagnosis. Probably just going to sell to someone who can figure it out before it blows. Thanks for the suggestions.
     
    Funktionull, via a mobile device, Aug 29, 2022
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