John's BNR S3 daily driver performance build

Discussion in 'Mazdaspeed 3 Build Diaries' started by VTMongoose, Feb 13, 2016.

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  1. VTMongoose

    VTMongoose John/MD1032 Greenie Member

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    Let's continue where we left off.

    I bought this car nearly bone stock a little over a year ago with ~37,500 miles and it currently has about 80,000 miles. Almost everything on the car, especially the engine, is in good condition, although the suspension is on its last legs due to age. I already had one rear damper blow out (replaced with a used one from a local).

    Bolt-On’s

    My current bolt-on’s will be maintained throughout the build: a JBR 3.5” aluminum intake, CP-E TMIC, and CP-E catless long downpipe.

    Turbo

    Power will be provided by a used BNR S3 I picked up for $850 with 4k miles on it. This turbo was dropped in recently and tuning is ongoing. I like it so far. It’s not perfect, but close enough for my purposes. If it outlasts the K04, which only lasted 15-20k miles or so once I tuned it on methanol, it will be a win in my book. We’ll see.

    [​IMG]
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    This turbo has good spool characteristics “for its size”. In some logs, I have hit 20 psi as early as 3100 RPM. It feels similar to a K04 on the stock upper and lower downpipe (both stock cats). The best things about this turbo are the ability to floor it at low RPM’s (and not worry about the turbo spooling and throwing a rod), its impressive midrange torque, and its cost. The worst things about it are its slower response and lack of “punch” compared to the K04.

    Tuning

    I tune on a 2:10 methanol:E10 in-tank mix using Cobb ATR. I’ve considered Versatune, but the AP V3 is far too convenient for me with its ability to live monitor 6 things at once at CAN speeds. Tuning isn’t complete, but right now I’m running a reverse taper with ~2.30 load all the way across to about 5500-6000 RPM where I have found it necessary to have a sharp dropoff (sharper than it should be) lest I knock: my stock CBE seems to be causing some backpressure issues in the very high RPM’s. I will deal with it eventually.

    Let the fun begin

    Methanol injection system

    My methanol injection system will be loosely based on what Sari posted here and it is going to be cheap:

    GE3KSPD MOTORSPORTS

    I already have every part I need for this setup and am just waiting for the HTP tank I ordered to come in. I’ll be running the solenoid option instead of the check valve.

    [​IMG]

    I did buy a TB spacer, however I won’t be using it per dale gribble’s research in this thread. Instead I will buy a cold pipe and tap it.

    I will install the meth system and AEM failsafe and start spraying on top of running my existing in-tank mix. When that is working to my satisfaction, I will discontinue the in-tank mix. The biggest drawback of my setup will be the push-to-connect fittings, which are garbage, however the AEM failsafe will hopefully keep things under control in the event that a line pops out. I have already verified that my methanol timing map won’t knock with the BNR on spring pressure while on straight 93 gas, which is awesome – I can simply have the AEM interrupt the EBCS signal via a relay. All details will be covered down the road.

    Inexpensive, custom, @JgamB-inspired catback exhaust

    I drive a lot and cannot tolerate a loud exhaust. I will be using the following parts:

    [​IMG]

    The Vibrant ultra quiet resonator will replace the useless “bottle” resonator on the speed daddy in the stock resonator location, and the Dynomax VT will be roughly installed as follows:

    [​IMG]

    Why go through all this trouble? I took a spin in Jgamb’s car at ENMWM and no exhaust setup I’ve heard even comes close. It is quieter than stock when cruising around, but when you floor it, the sound is louder, but without being totally deafening like an electric exhaust cutout would be (I considered one of those as well). When the Dynomax VT valve is open, the whole system becomes totally straight-through. The downside is that the Dynomax VT will probably start rattling after about a year due to a design flaw – I will pre-mark it before installing it so that I can screw mod it once it starts rattling to stop the rattle.

    The biggest problem I have right now on this front is that the speed daddy exhaust seems to have disappeared from the market. Out of stock on their own website, even. I may need to buy a different ebay CBE or a used one and find a way to make that work. I regret not ordering it while it was available.

    Suspension

    Concept: Spring rates roughly double stock (ride frequency ~2.0 Hz), revalved stock-style non-adjustable Bilstein dampers, stock ride height, stock alignment specs to start with.

    I am already going beyond what the stock suspension was designed to do thanks to my upgraded tires and brake pads, occasionally bottoming out under hard braking on bumpy roads or roads with changing elevations.

    I talked to Shaikh from Fat Cat Motorsports for a while about doing a setup with him. Unfortunately, we had a falling out after I asked him for a small discount ($125) off his “consultation fee”, which represents $250 of his extremely expensive revalve service (in total, $1750 for all four dampers). He pushed back, and then I told him that I would agree to pay the full price. After that, he sent a response saying that he wasn’t interested in building my dampers because I wasn’t willing to “pay for good advice” and he didn’t “feel appreciated for the unique service he provides”. A shame we couldn’t work together, however, he did a shitload of research, sending me all of his ideas along the way, and his contributions to this build will be appreciated.

    Springs: I will be using Ground Control springs with rates set based on my target ride frequencies, and the corner weights I obtained locally. The car was loaded with 300 lbs in the driver’s seat when these weights were measured (matches my weight). I personally inspected the stock suspension prior to this being performed to make sure everything was in good condition to ensure the numbers would be as accurate as possible.

    [​IMG]

    Shaikh gave me a few options for ride frequency and the one I have chosen is ~1.9/2.1 Hz front/rear which he told me equates to about 440/500 lb/in springs front/rear. I did a quick calculation in excel using the following formula to make sure this was right, using Zenit's motion ratio values (inverted per the formula which has it expressed as wheel/spring instead of spring/wheel). Sure enough, it seems correct. I played with all of these numbers a little bit and none of this is ever going to be exact. The main takeaway I got was that I’m pretty sure I need at least a 50 lb/in difference between the front and the rear if I want to make sure my ride frequencies front to rear differ by around 10-20% which seems to be ideal from the limited materials I’ve read online. I ended up going with 425 lb/in front, 500 lb/in rear, and 8" springs which will allow me to adjust the ride height 1" up or down relative to stock.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It’s pretty interesting the way the difference in weights between the driver and passenger sides is almost exactly 10% both front and rear. Obviously this would change if I changed the rear sway bar. I’ll worry about that detail later.

    I already got the springs from ground control. They are painted a nice ugly "ricer" red. AFAIK I will be the first person to use Bilsteins with these springs other than ground control themselves. They told me they will fit, but the front bump stops will limit my travel. That won't be an issue because I'm going to cut them.

    [​IMG]

    @phate was kind enough to send me info on calculating some of the above. I also got some much-needed input from @zenit during the whole initial suspension research phase and I have to thank him for that.

    Dampers: I will be using the Bilstein B6’s because they have an extended rod relative to the B8’s, which will allow me to run at stock ride height without the struts limiting the suspension downward travel. I am having them revalved at Bilstein because Shaikh indicated to me that they are factory valved for the stock spring rates and sent me this dyno graph of some stock B8’s, which honestly I don’t have enough experience to speak much about:

    [​IMG]

    Sway bars: The rear will probably need replacement with a stiffer unit at some point, but I won’t touch it until I’ve installed and aligned the new suspension and gotten some seat time with it.

    Tires

    My endgame setup is 17” Bridgestone RE71R’s wrapped around some cheap 17x9 rims for off-road use. I will probably target something in the 225-245 width range with corresponding offset and width.

    I currently use stock size Michelin PSS on the stock rims and honestly the lateral grip is “pretty good” for a street tire, but straight line grip is mediocre as these tires cannot even hold 350 wtq from my BNR S3 in 3rd gear.

    I picked up some Hankook RS3's 235/45/17 for $445 shipped to my door and these will get mounted once I find some 17x9 rims.

    [​IMG]

    Cosmetic modifications

    Hell no.

    Miscellaneous

    Corksport injector seals will be installed. As with many others, while I definitely take issue with Brock (Tokay444) and how he conducts himself, the design is too good to disregard.

    Intake valves have never been cleaned, and I may clean them when I do the injector seals, although I still believe the turbo itself will limit airflow more than dirt on the intake valves. I have no OCC’s, and EGR is still installed and functional. I may just clean the EGR tube when we pop off the IM and that’s it.

    Stock NGK SILTR6A7G spark plugs will be used. I doubt I’ll need to change these.

    I am Damond Motorsports “threesome” mounted already.

    I use Hawk HP+ pads on stock rotors and calipers. One of my favorite mods I’ve done to the car honestly.

    I will be adding an EGT gauge to the second bung on my CP-E downpipe at some point. I will attempt to acquire a dual vent pod of some variety, hopefully I can snag a blockhead one on the FS forums at some point.

    That’s all for now. I didn't carry everything over from my old thread yet because I'm going to have individual installation posts with How-To's for each component I install, which will contain more details. My current project is getting the suspension stuff installed once I get the dampers back from Bilstein.
     
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  2. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Following. We're in a similar boat. I went BNR S3 ~42k miles and am at ~65k now. I'm hoping to ride out the stock block a long time. I'm running E28 + 100% methanol on a CM7 now (last 5k miles, or so). I'm going up to a CM10 soon.

    What power level are you tuned to? How's compression, leakdown, UOA's?
     
  3. darkcambria

    darkcambria Greenie Member

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    I'm very excited for you to get your Bilstein setup together and get a feel for it. I'm glad that you were able to get someone to revalve those shocks and for much much less cheaper than FCM. I want a ride or codrive once you get it together and out on track.
     
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  4. Mzr0818

    Mzr0818 Local Parts warehouse Silver Member

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    I miss my beaner sometimes.
     
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  5. VTMongoose

    VTMongoose John/MD1032 Greenie Member

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    Interesting Jeff. Why? I would think the 3067 would be a pretty big upgrade from almost every angle, except maybe it spools 200 rpm later or so I imagine.

    The BNR isn't a very memorable turbo. There's no RPM where it magically punches you in the fact like a lot of other turbos.
     
  6. Mzr0818

    Mzr0818 Local Parts warehouse Silver Member

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    Oh it is... However the 200rpm spool loss is evident on the dragon. coming through a corner 3rd is just a little high, 2nd is too much. The BNR could pull right out.
     
  7. VTMongoose

    VTMongoose John/MD1032 Greenie Member

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    Meh...so could a K04...I still think the ideal turbo is roughly halfway between the K04 and the BNR S3 in size. When the S3 blows up I might put an S1 on eventually...that will probably take a few years, though.
     
  8. Mzr0818

    Mzr0818 Local Parts warehouse Silver Member

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    All depends on what you want the car to do. I like right between 350/350 and 400/400
     
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  9. MazdaMovement

    MazdaMovement Social Media Partner // MSO Greenie Member

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    Excellent write up. That sucks though hearing about Fat Cat Motorsports. I think you're being a bit PC IMO. But bashing will get you nowhere so I respect that. I'll be following closely to this thread.
     
    MazdaMovement, via a mobile device, Feb 13, 2016
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  10. VTMongoose

    VTMongoose John/MD1032 Greenie Member

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    What do you mean by that? What is "PC"?

    Thanks for following the thread. My immediate objective with this thread is to get two decent How-To's out, one for how to duplicate my suspension setup using revalved Bilsteins and custom springs, which I believe will have exceptional ride quality and performance for the price, and one showing how to duplicate my WMI setup which will be based on the AEM flow failsafe which only a couple people have used before and the flow sensor has proven to be problematic in the past (I have loose plans for dealing with that problem as well...as far as I understand it, the flow sensor uses rotating blades which seize over time).
     
  11. MazdaMovement

    MazdaMovement Social Media Partner // MSO Greenie Member

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    Politically Correct.
    I never understood a vendor to take such a stand when asking for a discount. The whole point of him not wanting to work with you because of that is silly. Hell the advertising here by bringing it up is worth the discount.
     
    MazdaMovement, via a mobile device, Feb 14, 2016
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  12. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Do you mean spool, or boost threshold? The terms are often used interchangeably, but they're not the same thing. Then there's transient response too, LOL.

    For me, the BNR S3's boost threshold is so low, it's a non-factor on my stock block. It can build appreciable boost before 3k, but I don't WOT before then becuz stock rods anyways, so I'm basically always above the boost threshold when I WOT.

    In terms of spool, within 200-250 rpms of going WOT, my BNR is already making 20+ psi. That's very quick spool.

    In terms of transient response, when non-FFS'ing between gears, it does take a little time for the BNR to slow down and speed back up. It is in terms of transient response that I'd expect the GTX3067r with it's DBB CHRA to probably do noticeably better. EFRs are ridiculously good in this area too, FWIH.
     
  13. VTMongoose

    VTMongoose John/MD1032 Greenie Member

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    It was a really weird situation, man. I forwarded the e-mail chain to a couple people who worked with him before and I wasn't the only one who was confused, especially considering he has a reputation for being a pretty level-headed guy. He told me the consultation fee would be $125 for 30 mins or $250 for 60 mins, then $1100 for the revalve and $400 for the ripple reducer option (something of his design that improves damper response). Here's verbatim what I sent to him. I was really being exceptionally nice even by my standards when I said this, considering I was looking at a $1750 revalve, and I am now going with a revalve that will cost me <10% of what he was charging.

    I can't bash him too much (other than on pricing) because he did a lot of research for me for free. He sent like 7 multi-page e-mails (this guy is ridiculously longwinded...he's much better at wasting his time than I am) to me about his plans for my setup which I basically just ended up taking and running with as a foundation.

    Good question. I don't mean boost threshold. Actually, the boost threshold is quite low on the BNR, it's a very usable turbo that produces good power down low. I'm using the term "spool" in the same way other people on MSF typically use it (whether correct or not) - to indicate where peak torque is achieved on our engines with XYZ turbo, or where the turbo reaches normal operating speed. So peak torque for the K04 is something like 2500 RPM's and with the BNR it's like 3100-3200 RPM's.
     
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  14. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Yeah, the BNR S3 will get into substantial boost fast, even faster than I need. My tuner has my stuff neutered down low for the rods. If I were built and we could go full bore lower, I think it'd compete very well with the K04 down low, and maybe even better in terms of a tad slower ramp up helps put the power to the pavement.
     
  15. VTMongoose

    VTMongoose John/MD1032 Greenie Member

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    What year is your car? I have a Pu and the gearing is taller, therefore on tight autocross courses I envision that this turbo will not deliver the acceleration out of the corners that the K04 did.
     
  16. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    2010. And with BNR power levels, I wish the gearing were even taller, especially in 1st-3rd, LOL. I have Michelin Pilot Super Sports in 245 treadwidth, and they still have a hard time hooking. I know stickier tires exist; I also know those tires may last like 10k miles, haha.
     
  17. VTMongoose

    VTMongoose John/MD1032 Greenie Member

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    Behind the scenes, good progress has been made, although I have run into one snag. Bilstein North Carolina reached out to me and let me know that my rear struts would not physically fit on their dyno, therefore the rears are on their way to California right now and the fronts are on their way to me. One of my front dampers is starting to go bad (no oil explosion yet, but believe me, I've killed enough dampers to know when something's wrong), so I'm going to install the front springs/dampers, and rear springs, when the fronts arrive. Write-up to follow.

    I received my speed daddy exhaust. I have to say it is obvious that this is a cheap exhaust.

    [​IMG]

    Why, you ask? Doesn't the piping look decent? Actually yes, it does. It certainly looks like real stainless and most of the welds look pretty good, but there's one interesting thing...let me show you a pic down the bore of the front of the mid-pipe....

    [​IMG]

    All of the resonators in this exhaust are fake. That's right, this is a straight piped exhaust with cans welded around it designed to look like resonators. That explains why they're so damn loud. The vibrant ultra quiet resonator by itself probably weighs more than the entire axleback section.

    Shots of the dynomax VT with its valve:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Yesterday I tapped my cold pipes. Unfortunately the Gen1 one (the one I'm going to sell) was a lot easier to tap and came out better than the one I'm planning on using. Oh well.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The wheels are in town, I just have to go pick them up and UPS and then drive them up to Dizzy Turbo's dealership to get them mounted.

    Finally, I received this e-mail today from Mint.com and LOL'd

    [​IMG]

    Once the HTP meth tank gets here, I will literally be done buying everything I need. It's just a matter of getting the exhaust welded (I contacted two shops who are willing to help me out and will contact a 3rd tomorrow), and waiting for Bilstein to finish my dampers. So, things are finally taking shape.
     
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  18. Boost_creep

    Boost_creep Greenie Member

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    I would bring that nozzle in a touch more. The outer edge should be flush with the inside wall and the nozzle tip should actually be slightly protruding into the air stream.
     
    Boost_creep, via an iPhone, Mar 1, 2016
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  19. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    You think so? As long as the threaded portion is deep enough to seal well with Teflon tape or paste, and the nozzle tip protrudes deeply enough so that the spray cone isn't clipped, he should be good IMHO.
     
  20. VTMongoose

    VTMongoose John/MD1032 Greenie Member

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    Honestly, I doubt my installation will affect the spray pattern. Here is a video of some devil's own nozzles in action. You can see that they spray in a roughly 60-90° "V" pattern outwards.

     
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