Learn about COBB's SWAS-Disable Features (on 2010 Test-Mule)

Discussion in 'Mazdaspeed 3/6 ECU Tuning' started by Redline, Feb 2, 2017.

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  1. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    TL;DR COBB doesn't fully disable SWAS. It only impacts 1 of 3 factors SWAS controls when activated. SWAS disabling through ATR may be useful for some, but my particular car (2010)/power level/driving experience preferences have proven that totally disconnecting the system by unplugging in the steering column is best for me. Here's the conversation, as it developed on my local forum:

    El Beaner was telling me yesterday at the install meet that we can now disable SWAS with the AccessPORT tuning interface?

    I looked around on MSF and didn't see anything conclusive. If this is true, is this a V3 AP-only thing? My firmware and ATR are both fully updated/newest version. But I'm a V2b AP. I asked COBB support about this, but am awaiting a response.

    I know that disabling SWAS is available with Versatuner. Perhaps Beaner had his wires crossed and was thinking it's an AP thing too. And since I've done so much tuning, I know ATR like the back of my hand. I didn't see anything in there... Any input, guys?

    If it comes down to it, I'll just keep my SWAS sensor unplugged in my steering column. I'm already used to the two warning lights staying on. No biggie...
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  2. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Originally Posted by Smelson
    "It can be done. It is all tune based. I've never encountered SWAS so I have not messed with it. I believe it's all in the community requests for Cobb."

    Maybe it's an ATR Pro-only feature. I don't have the option in ATR Race.

    AP V2b or V3, does it matter?

    I'm really surprised you never hit SWAS. Mine was super sensitive and I hit it a lot especially after my power went up. Maybe it's a '10 vs '12 thing... SWAS is super annoying and intrusive when it activates for me.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Originally Posted by Zdraveca
    "Its only available for 1st and 2nd gear too"

    Good to know. I'd probably wanna disable it in 3rd too. Hmmm....

    Well, we'll see what COBB says. Hopefully it'll be available to me with my V2b/ATR Race combination. I could always email Justin and ask him to send me an updated map, but he's so busy I like not bothering him with stuff that I can easily do myself, if possible...
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    SoftTony:
    it's so annoyyyyyyyyyyyyyying!!!! especially in fast second gear turns I try to accelerate out of! Is this something I could ask Justin to do? I've been thinking about it! I've been meaning to do a couple logs anyway just to see how things are going.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    The Flash:

    I hit SWAS all the time in 2nd gear. There is a tight turn onto the freeway and if I give it power it cuts me off!
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Originally Posted by obsidian76
    "I think it only affects maps V234, I checked my Freektune map and it is V231. But I might be wrong."

    Hmmmm.... so maybe it's a base map property? I'm trying to understand how COBB facilitates disabling the SWAS. I'm not a software engineer, so I really don't have too good of an idea.

    So you went ahead and got FREEK'd too, Roy? Sweet! Can you offer some observations/comparisons between Justin's work and the COBB pro-tune you were previously on?
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    The response, straight from COBB:

    Great news! It will work with both V2 and V3 for now. You will need to update to BETA ATR to be able to add this feature. It is not in release ATR just yet. Please let us know if you have any other questions. I'll be happy to help!

    Thank You,
    John
    ph: 866-922-3059
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Beaner:
    "Yeah, it's under Advanced Engine parameters in the ATR - didn't realise it was a beta software update.

    I just got an updated map from Freek where I asked for SWAS disable in 1/2

    Also for you Genjuan guys - it will work but from my understanding on reading the thread on MSF, it's an all or nothing type deal for the Genjuan menaing that your DBW tables have to be set to 100% in all fields which elemiates the PCM abaility to limit torque under all conditions."
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    So here's the low-down, having spoken with COBB on the phone:

    There are two ways of disabling SWAS for our cars:

    1. Unchecking the SWAS boxes under Advanced Parameters. There's a box for 1st gear, and a box for 2nd gear. (Note: these only appear when you've upgraded your ATR to the Beta version).

    If you go this route, you have no torque limiting at all in 1st and 2nd, like Beaner said. This means no traction control, no SWAS interference, etc. But this ONLY impacts 1st and 2nd (if you un-check both of those boxes). This route may be good for the lower whp guys who don't have SWAS issues in higher gears.

    2. With the Beta version of ATR, you'll have a "Beta Tables" folder. Inside, there are three tables, DBW Throttle Compensation A, B, and C. If you change the entire table to "100" (every single cell), you're telling the ECU to allow 100% torque across the whole powerband. You have to do this to all 3 tables.

    If you go this route, you'll be disabling SWAS in the higher gears too. Some people (myself included) have experienced SWAS interference in 3rd and even 4th gear. The ethanol and BT guys know what I'm talking about. I've had 4th gear tuning logs show the notorious 9s AFR because SWAS has jumped in because my torque steer caused the steering wheel to turn too much. So going this route entirely disables SWAS instead of just 1st and 2nd gear.

    I don't know if either of these routes cause the warning lights to still activate when wheelspin or steering angle conditions would normally cause torque limiting. I have to experiment more. For me, I don't care if the warning lights flash. I just care that the nanny effect doesn't occur. And to be certain that it doesn't, I'll have to pull some logs to observe the AFR. Dipping into the low 10s and 9s is the tell-tale sure sign that SWAS has intervened.

    Also, I have a 2010, which has a lot of ECU differences than the 2011-2013. Further, I have non-tech, which could also introduce further variables.

    Basically, I have to experiment to see what's what. COBB wasn't able to answer some of my very specific questions, so only experimentation will clarify.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Originally Posted by Zdraveca
    "Not really sure how I feel aboud disabling swas in all gears. Isn't swas responsible about applying brakes on each corner if it detects that the vehicle is about to lose control?"

    Yep, from what I understand. That's why I'm somewhat reluctant too.

    For now, I've re-plugged in my SWAS and flashed a map that just has 1st and 2nd disabled. I'll get some miles on it and see how I like it. I'm used to having zero SWAS, but now that I have a little girl, having it enabled for highway cruising, etc., is really important.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Cheapspeed:
    "SWAS almost got me into an accident when I pulled a Uturn and there wasn't power until a moment later when my steering wheel straigtened out, right before torque steer kicked in and I almost sideswiped another car."
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Beaner:
    from the discussion in the ATR thread my understanding is that you still retain DSC even when you have all the fields set to 100%(I could be mistaken though cause there are so many different people saying one thing and then another) DSC and TCS are two different systems from what people have mentioned. The best way to test it would be a day like today that has wet roads. Make a map with all fields at 100%, go out and punch it in 3rd/4th and see if DSC kicks in applyingthe brakes.

    From what Justin told me is that I still have to press my TCS button on the dash so swas turns off in 1st and 2nd (basically boxes checked in ATR and TCS on = you still have SWAS and boxes checked in ATR and TCS off = no SWAS in 1/2)

    I still haven't loaded up the new map(forgot to last night) so I'll get it loaded up tonight and test it tomorrow.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Were these comments differentiated according to Pu/Won, Tech/Non-Tech, 2010 or 2011-2013? These are all pertinent factors...

    Ultimately, I think actually testing it will answer a lot of the questions.

    Several things:

    1. When on the phone with COBB, they said nothing about having to press the DSC button to effectively disable SWAS in 1st and 2nd. I'm actually inclined to believe Justin because he knows his stuff. I need to test this.

    2. Point of clarification: SWAS is disabled with the boxes in ATR UNCHECKED, not checked. The default setting (SWAS enabled) is boxes checked.

    3. According to COBB, 100-ing out all three tables completely eliminates all torque limiting. They told me that this disables DSC and TCS. Now DSC includes a braking element too wherein our cars will activate individual brake calibers to bring our car back into a straight path if the yaw sensor in the car detects fishtailing/etc. So maybe what the COBB guy meant is that the torque-limiting component of DSC is completely disabled, but that the braking component remains enabled. This needs to be tested too. This is of paramount safety importance, especially for those of us with kidd-o's riding in the back.

    Ultimately, we need to test to clarify lots of things. I need to test as a 2010 non-tech. Hopefully we could have a 2010 w/tech test (different systems). And then also a 2011+ both tech/non-tech also test. The systems in all of these four different combinations run slightly differently. And that's just with regard to the Pu's.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Originally Posted by El Beaner
    "And the 2012-21013 I think were different than the 2011 even too. 12/13 can hold down the button for ~10 seconds and it supposedly disables swas if not limits swas interferance.

    I thik it's going to take some time for people to play with the settings and find what the best combination are.

    Not sure if you can view MSF or not, but here's the thread on this info (start halfway down page 36 nad continue forward)

    http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1/index36.html "

    Just got off the phone again with COBB. You DO have to press the DSC button to enable this SWAS-off feature. Justin is correct. So, you have the boxes unchecked in ATR for 1st and 2nd, save the map, flash the map, turn on the car, then press the DSC button on the dash. Then, you can drive around without having SWAS interfere.

    Also, the COBB guy told me that they haven't messed with the braking aspect of DSC at all. So that's always going to be active, regardless if you go about disabling SWAS by using the check boxes, or by 100-ing out those three tables.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Update:

    Been running with just the SWAS boxes unchecked for a few days now. I thought I was feeling some slight hesitation during conditions in which the SWAS would normally interfere. That got me to thinking, what about the AFR aspect of SWAS?

    Well, it turns out that your AFRs will still go stupid rich even with those three tables set to all 100's. And that's the slight hesitation I've been feeling.

    I'm thinking I'm going to just go back to unplugging the sensor. I've been talking to Justin about it (FREEKTUNE) and he just runs unplugged too. Besides, I'm used to having those two warning lights on anyways...

    AFR bogging is much less intrusive than full SWAS intervention, but it just doesn't feel right. It's a slight bogging that kind of gets on my nerves.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Originally Posted by rolanblack
    "Maybe swas has to be tuned into your tune to counter the richness"

    Nah, it's just part of what SWAS does... It drops timing, makes AFRs go stupid rich, and puts a severe limit on torque, basically dropping your boost abruptly and making you feel like you hit boost cut.

    The functionality that COBB has made available through ATR addresses the torque/boost limiting. It doesn not, however, address the AFR aspect of SWAS interference... I verified this with Justin from FREEKTUNE too.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---
    Soft Tony:
    "When I asked him about disabling SWAP via map, he said "e played with the cobb tables and there is no way to get rid of the rich condition that happens, you can only keep the throttle plate pegged, So the best way is to still disconnect SWAS until they dig a little deeper into it. This was about 3 days ago. I just want power through my turns!!! :'( "

    Yeah, same here about saying that AFR adjustment with regard to SWAS is currently inaccessible, like I posted before...

    Honestly, I think I'm going to just run unplugged. No bogging at all, however slight. ABS is unaffected too. I won't have the dynamic braking of SWAS, but that's okay. I just won't drive like an idiot (read "dangerously") ESPECIALLY with my Daughter in the car.

    The way I see it, lots of other cars have no SWAS-like feature and are completely safe on the road...
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017 ---

    Update:

    Having driven around for a while with SWAS disabled through ATR in 1st and 2nd, I have come to the conclusion that keeping the sensor unplugged in my steering column is best for me.

    With a stock Speed or even a bolted/tuned one on 93, the SWAS intervention may be much more tolerable. But on an ethanol tune, and with a BNR, SWAS intervention is very abrupt, even if the load-limiting component is eliminated. The AFR intervention still is very significant for me.

    SWAS has three aspects of control (that I know of--it may be more) with regard to power delivery (I'm excluding its braking control aspect here):

    1. AFR
    2. Ignition Timing
    3. Load Limiting (best understood and read as "torque limiting")

    Unfortunately, COBB has only really addressed number 3: Load Limiting. Therefore, my AFRs still go stupid rich and my timing gets retarded a great deal, which is very noticeable and creates very significant bucking. SWAS intervention is well understood to be very similar to what our ECU does when it detects KR: pull timing and add fuel (however, our ECUs do NOT reference a load-limiting table in these conditions, which is dissimilar to SWAS intervention).

    Admittedly, SWAS intervention is much less abrupt in 1st and 2nd now, but I frequently find myself in lots of driving conditions in 3rd and 4th where it interferes very severely. And even in 1st and 2nd, what SWAS still does is very noticeable/undesirable, especially since I'm used to zero SWAS interference. It's definitely not for me.

    I really cannot adequately express with just words how big of a positive difference driving around in a Pu with ZERO SWAS is. It's one of those things that you have to experience firsthand, especially at my power level. If other Pu owners on here haven't already tried it, I'd recommend doing it for a few weeks just to see for yourself. You'll really never know unless you've tried it.

    For me, nothing else compares. It is a very profound/positive difference. Only if COBB releases the other tables relating to SWAS (SWAS-referenced timing and AFR) would I be open to giving it another shot. In the meanwhile, I'm leaving mine unplugged and not looking back...
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  3. SharksInSpace

    SharksInSpace Planets and shit. Silver Member

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    I don't recall ever having SWAS trip in my juan, even at the track day I ran last year. Is it that big of a problem for other guys?
     
    SharksInSpace, via a mobile device, Feb 2, 2017
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  4. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    It was for me. I've had interventions so severe that it felt like boost cut. If you've never felt that before and don't know what it is when it happens, you usually crap yourself until you realize everything is okay, LOL.
     
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  5. SharksInSpace

    SharksInSpace Planets and shit. Silver Member

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    Jeez. I don't think I've ever seen that warning light trip, and certainly haven't had any issues with throttle or boost cut while taking corners at speed. That'd probably freak me out, as well, thinking I'd broken something.
     
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  6. macdiesel

    macdiesel Silver Member

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    Try autocross. Turn the wheel enough and the power reduction is fierce


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    macdiesel, via a mobile device, Feb 4, 2017
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  7. SharksInSpace

    SharksInSpace Planets and shit. Silver Member

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    Haven't done autox, but it wasn't an issue at any point while hooning around a racetrack last summer.
     
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  8. Quigs

    Quigs Greenie Member

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    SWAS would kill power for me on some of the tighter sweepers when trying to accelerate hard out of a corner, especially on a sharp corner where it was a wide spot on the track where you could really cut the apex. Felt it at the track and also on the street. For some reason it seemed to impact me more on right hand turns, not sure if there is any reason for that or if I just noticed it more on the right handers. I have had my SWAS disabled via a switch for the past four years or so now, and it pretty much stays exclusively in the "off" position.
     
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  9. HawkeyeGeoff

    HawkeyeGeoff MSO Chicks Greenie Member

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    Impacts Gen2 more than Gen1, just unplug and be done.
     
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  10. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Exactly the conclusion I came to. Running unplugged until if/when I go VT. It's a HUGE positive difference on my 2010. I think it honestly affects 2010s more, though I have no data to back it up. This is just based on what the drivers of other years have said.

    I will say this: it's night/day for me. I am so spoiled by having it unplugged that I could never go back. It is truly an astounding difference in the driving experience.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  11. Mastermind46

    Mastermind46 Greenie Member

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    But doesn't unplugging swas kill powering steering in Genpu's at low speeds... say when you are parking????? Is this only certain years or just if you turn sharp enough at too high of a speed?

    If this is an issue with 2010s then I will definitely wire in a switch... on = park mode!
     
  12. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Only if you try to turn the wheel too fast. And it has to be really quick for it to happen, in my experience. It literally only happens to me a couple times a year, if I try to finger-spin the wheel without thinking, etc.
     
  13. Finch204

    Finch204 Silver Member

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    If you're triggering SWAS during cornering, doesn't that mean you are trying to get on the power too early?
     
  14. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Not at all, especially when you're tuned and far beyond stock power levels (so your loads are going to be much higher, and SWAS interference includes load limiting - so if you're making a lot more power and have much higher loads, it'll kick off much more easily, in my experience). I've had it interfere extremely obstrusively (bucking and everything) and I wasn't even close to WOT. On certain cars, SWAS can literally be deadly. Ask Cheaps or some of the other locals, Finch. SWAS has almost caused many potentially very severe accidents, esp. on tuned cars.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  15. Finch204

    Finch204 Silver Member

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    If it works off the load limits as you say, then yeah that makes sense that it would be a problem for high power builds. Fortunately for me, with my low power levels, it hasn't been a problem yet. I am able to trigger it intentionally, but only when I'm getting on the power too early. On my regular driving and even spirited driving, it hasn't been a problem for me.
     
  16. HawkeyeGeoff

    HawkeyeGeoff MSO Chicks Greenie Member

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    Look it just equates to a shitty cal on Mazdas part with their first electric P/S application. There's really no point in beating this dead horse more.
     
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  17. SharksInSpace

    SharksInSpace Planets and shit. Silver Member

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    I like beating dead horses...live horses are too tough to catch.
     
    SharksInSpace, via a mobile device, Feb 9, 2017
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  18. xfeejayx

    xfeejayx Greenie Member

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    It's interfering, and you don't even know it. Ever feel like your'e giving it gas and the car just won't go?
     
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  19. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    You also have a 2013. Like I said above, I've heard the interference can be much more subtle in 12's and 13's, for instance. People think all Pu's are the same; they're not. Not only did major changes like aspects of the tech package occur, but other things that we're still learning about, like the issue I just had with CS's lower control arm brace not fitting b/c 10's and 11's have a welded-on bracket on the driver's side that 12's and 13's don't: https://mazdaspeeds.org/index.php?threads/lower-control-arm-chassis-brace.3971/

    I tuned a local with a 12 and he didn't mind SWAS at all either. My view is even if it's more subtle with newer Pu's, if you disconnect SWAS and drive around a while, you'd be surprised how much it interferes, even if your interference is much smoother. Again, for me it was night/day. I'll never go back to SWAS-enabled.
     
  20. Finch204

    Finch204 Silver Member

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    I think we need more threads like this if we are to continue growing this community/forum. While it could be old info for other people, some of these stuff is still new for noobs like me.

    You're probably right, I probably just don't notice it. The only time I notice it, is when I'm trying to power out of a corner but haven't turned the car sufficiently enough to get a clean exit.

    It very well could be that it is more subtle for the 2012-2013 Pus. My current Dizzy Tune map has SWAS enabled and I don't mind it at all, but like I said previously, I can see how it could be an issue for higher power levels.
     
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