Building for the road course...again

Discussion in 'Cars' started by gotovato, Nov 18, 2021.

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  1. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    The ITB suggestion is to push their ITBs they make. Apparently not necessary for the engine speed range I’ll be operating in.

    ITBs are a common misconception. Below 10,000rpm, a proper plenum manifold will make the same power. Below 8000, it will make more.

    My intake manifold was suggested by my tuner. These cams would work great with the setup.


    As for a more streetable camshaft, the skunk2 ultra 1 is still on the table. Currently waiting for the final simulations and we’ll make the decision based on that
     
    gotovato, via an iPhone, Aug 2, 2023
  2. Code Monkey

    Code Monkey Platinum Member

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    Why would you ever be below 6000 rpms on the track?
     
  3. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    There are a few corners where I am. The downshift into those corners is quite harsh/aggressive and it can cause over slow. Exiting at 4500rpm just works better in those specific situations.


    A possible final drive swap is an idea now. 5.1 vs my 4.7. Would totally eliminate the need for down shift but also keep rpm higher
     
    gotovato, via an iPhone, Aug 3, 2023
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  4. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    Had a great time on track Thursday. Civic was a weapon. I don’t ever use the term “on rails” but I’ve had a few comments mentioning how hooked up the car looks. It sure does!

    Had a great assortment of prey…I mean cars out on track yesterday. Have some great chase footage of a lotus, caged brz and Porsche, OH… and a GT4 cup car. That was a fun chase.

    first off here’s my fastest lap. New personal best by over 1.1 second. Not bad at all
    Grand Bend Motorplex Technical layout - 1 Lap with the Civic



    Some of the cars out playing yesterday,
    48AA9671-BD53-4856-BCEF-CB778AD38DBA.jpeg
    B1710E0D-B934-43B2-9152-9F0CCE04BE66.jpeg
    65AED909-D3B6-4912-95E4-D99F87D6CE6C.jpeg

    my shop built this gti for the owner. Owner is personal friends with the shop owner. Gtx2867 turbo, Hoosier A7’s, caged, Kw club sport coilovers. Little aero. The works.

    I got to take it for a few laps. Crawling inside a caged car sucks lol I hate it. I’m far too large. The car itself felt great though! Very stable. Much more stable then my own car but I noticed it was lacking a little front end compared to my civic.
    BOOOST felt nice. I miss that type of power lol. That being said, this car with its driver is only about a second faster then me in my civic and I know I can find that second for sure.
    94EA7805-20CA-42FD-8E12-52711638D768.jpeg
    A7EB4DA6-A957-4F8B-B7CD-E58F19CD5E64.jpeg
    8D89538D-F3BE-40F8-B915-CE1D1D656974.jpeg

    my tires took a good beating. This long carousel at the end of the straight is like 3 seconds of sustained single input, loading the hell out of that front left tire. According to the brz driver my right rear tire is about 4-5” off the ground from the moment I turn in, to the moment I open the wheel and go wot. Pretty cool haha. The car works well. It is properly fast.

    tires got maybe 1 more evening lapping day left
    BC3A72BB-C067-43B8-AD27-DF700045D3C7.jpeg

    Video with some car chase action coming up!
     
    gotovato, via an iPhone, Aug 12, 2023
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  5. Easter Bunny

    Easter Bunny Professional Engineer Motorhead Platinum Member

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    That downshift at the end of the back straight...

    Looks like it might be time for better dampers car is moving a lot
     
    Easter Bunny, via a mobile device, Aug 12, 2023
  6. jdab555

    jdab555 Greenie Member

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    I think a lot of that is the camera mount moving, if you watch car -> track it doesn't look as bad as the whole picture.

    Gotta stay in those higher RPM bands to take advantage of the VTEC, sounds so frantic!
     
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  7. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    That is a spicy downshift for sure. Straight to 9000rpm. Which is OK for a brief moment. I did play with just blipping the throttle deeper into the corner to lower revs before downshifting. That helps.

    dampers are doing their thing I will say. It looks bouncy but it really isn’t. That being said the track is not flat at all. Bumps and shit everywhere.

    Camera does bounce around a ton though. I need a more serious mount I think
     
    gotovato, via an iPhone, Aug 12, 2023
  8. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    Yea you got it. The camera mount ain’t great lol.

    I love the way the engine sounds honestly. From vtec to 9000rpm it screams. It screams even more crazy once you pass 8400rpm
     
    gotovato, via an iPhone, Aug 12, 2023
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  9. SyntheticAtmosphere

    SyntheticAtmosphere You only get ONE ride, ONE ticket, ONE time! Silver Member

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    You look like you are performing better. You arent crossing your arms in the corners like in the vids from way back. You also look more relaxed or composed in the seat, which goes along way to make the car properly fast!
     
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  10. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    Thank you! I’ve noticed the same. I’ve also had a few others point out these things. Being relaxed in the drivers seat is huge. I’ve learned this.

    It was mental. I had to figure it out. I believe I have now! The whole not looking at speeds/lap timers thing and just focusing on the drive has also been a night and day difference.

    The sway bar change definitely helped reduce the amount of steering angle required. The car is pretty dialed right now and we’re not even done yet!
     
    gotovato, via an iPhone, Aug 12, 2023
  11. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    Little chase action from last week


    Grand Bend Technical - Chasing down some cool cars | Civic
     
    gotovato, via an iPhone, Aug 17, 2023
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  12. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    Restless after work yesterday. Went out to the garage to see what I could do on the car.

    It’s always had a ghetto af battery tie down I made in a rush. It is very crude but it’s worked for over 30 track days so far lol.

    What lead to this?? When I bought the car in 2021 it came with NO battery tie down. I didn’t know this. I tracked the car in 2021 and the beginning of 2022 like this until at one track day…

    positive battery terminal made contact with the frame rail and it cooked my ground straps killing the car ON TRACK. Footage here,


    I know I’m an idiot. Should’ve at least checked to make sure the battery was tied down. I just assumed it was. Battery is mounted in an aftermarket battery box that moves it low down on the driver side. I really hate this setup, for so so many reasons.

    how its looked since early 2022, just waiting for that sharp metal to slice my clutch line there lol.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    New tie down. Amazon. Couple of bucks. It kinda sucks to use with the wing nuts but I have no idea what thread pitch these tie downs are and none of my dyes fit. It’s m6xsomething. Far less fine then m6x1 which I have.
    [​IMG]

    This’ll be how it lives until the end of the season when everything comes apart
     
  13. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    Ferrea beehives vs Supertech beehives

    As I’ve mentioned in here before, I have a built engine going together end of season/over winter.
    I’ve selected most parts, with the exception of valve train. I am currently running the Supertech dual setup(1021) springs with titanium retainers. This was selected back when I was planning to go turbo.

    Since staying NA now, I will be going with a valve train more fitting to my application. Cam is still left to be decided but the cam currently in question will work with the below valve train options.

    Two options,
    [​IMG]


    Supertech setup: SPRK-H1007BE-2
    [​IMG]

    I do see some obvious differences between the two setups. Can anyone provide any reason why one setup would be better over the other?

    I have scoured the web for some info and it always comes back the same.
    “Ferrea valves suck”
    “Supertech valves sucks”

    "Use ferrea if you want a valve to drop"
    "Ive used supertech valve train for years without issue"
    "Ive used ferrea valve train for years without issue"

    It honestly seems like a dead even toss up. I hear some rumors of ferrea being higher quality and overall a "better" piece, but that said reviews in my opinion are completely split down the middle.

    For some more context, the supertech setup is approx $800 cad. The ferrea setup would be closer 1000. Its a $200 difference so maybe i just send it on the ferrea setup?
     
  14. AYOUSTIN

    AYOUSTIN Greenie Member

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    They're both good and they both suck. At the end of the day most valvetrain failures are because people slapped shit together and didn't actually measure anything. If you don't know your valve stem heights, spring installed heights, checking rocker arm alignment, stem seal clearance etc. you're taking a gamble. You could be fine, or you may end up breaking a spring, a retainer, destroying stem seals or dropping a valve.

    Dave does a good job explaining things in his videos and Headgames is one of the best performance head shops in the world. Luckily with a K series the valvetrain stuff is a lot easier to measure than a 2JZ or DISI head. You can do the manual method like Dave shows or you can grab a valve spring micrometer if you're lazy.



    As for which spring would be a better choice, it depends on how much spring your cam needs. Their seat pressures are similar but that doesn't tell the entire story and you can always get more seat pressure by shimming the seats if needed. Comparing open pressures at similar lift will tell you which one has a more aggressive rate.

    Something to note (and another reason it's good to measure everything) which may sound a bit counter intuitive at first; ideally you want a spring that goes into coil bind just above whatever your peak valve lift is. At high RPM valve springs have much better control over valves when they are operating NEAR coil bind (there always needs to be some amount of coil bind clearance). Going into coil bind will break a spring extremely fast and if you're lucky it won't turn the entire engine into a paperweight when the valve drops, so it's 100% something that should be measured.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2023
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  15. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    Thanks for the input. This is what i was looking for!

    It really does seem that installation is the key. I cant believe both brands are awesome but also suck lol. Install error makes a lot of sense here.

    Ive been following Headgames on instagram for a little while now. Definitely looks like they do good work. Would love to send them the cylinder head for this project. Will give the video a watch. Thanks for the info.

    As for the bit about coil bind, i didnt know this. I noticed that with my two options here, the supertechs seem to offer more max lift, but with a lower coil bind measurement?
    These two also seem to have their seat pressures measured at different spring heights? Maybe just to due with the spring seat? I wonder why this variation exists seeing as they are both "90lbs beehive k series springs".


    For the price difference, maybe the jump to ferrea is OK? if it was a larger gap i would be OK with supertech as well. Im using a supertech dual spring setup in my current engine
     
  16. AYOUSTIN

    AYOUSTIN Greenie Member

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    The coil bind measurement is referencing the spring height at coil bind. The measurements directly relate to each other (15mm max lift results in ~23mm height vs 14mm max lift results in 24mm height). The Supertech is likely achieving that extra mm by winding the spring differently or using an ovate wire, there's a few different ways to skin that cat.

    The difference in installed heights is likely due to the spring seats being slightly different. The installed height can only be changed with the valve stem length, retainer depth, or seat thickness (or shims). They're both called 90lb springs because both of them are 90lbs at their respective installed heights. If they both use stock spring seats then there is some discrepancy between them, or they measured or rounded a number differently. The only way to be absolutely sure is to measure for yourself after you decide which to go with. Any head shop will have a spring checker that can tell you what installed and open pressure will be if you know those measurements.

    FWIW I tend to gravitate towards GSC, Kelford and Ferrea for valvetrain stuff. I know a lot of people that like Supertech and haven't had any issues but they've never seemed to be at the forefront of innovation from what I've seen and I appreciate companies that push performance boundaries.
     
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  17. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    Thanks for the feedback here. I assumed the spring seat made the difference in install height. Both setups require use of their own spring seats. Must be some difference there.

    I gave the headgames video a watch. Should be simple enough for me to DIY. Great info there for sure.


    I think im OK to pay the premium on ferrea in this case. My initial searching showed a much larger price difference and i was aiming for supertech at that point. Now that ive found better pricing on the ferrea setup...i think ill give it a go!

    I should get my head machined first and do the measurements before i purchase the valve train but something tells me ill be going with the ferrea setup either way.
     
  18. AYOUSTIN

    AYOUSTIN Greenie Member

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    The Ferrea stuff is certainly high quality. I wouldn't say you need the springs before getting the head work done or vice versa. Just be sure to measure everything before you do a final assembly. Can always take it back to the shop if something is off/out of spec.


    I went back to read more on the next engine you're putting together and figured I'd throw in my .02.

    Ditch the Skunk2 manifold. People call them junk2 for a reason, they're poorly casted manifolds which are known for cracking on high revving engines without balance shafts. A ported RBC or RRC manifold will make just as much top end with a better mid range. The only times I've seen the S2 manifold gain power is on high power boosted cars, and crazy compression K24s.

    Speaking of balance shafts, delete them. They won't survive revving past 9k and it's been proven that there is a few HP gain moving to an RSX pump without the balance shafts. I don't remember what all is needed for that swap but it is a must for a high revving track setup.

    What pushed you to getting the 625 rod bolts? Are guys revving to 9.5-10k failing ARP 2000 bolts? You're running a lighter rod (which helps rod bolts live an easier life) and the rod/stroke ratio of the K20 is considerably better than the K24 which means peak acceleration is lower (and thus peak tensile force on the bolts). I know a fair amount of guys who rev stock K24s to 8800 without failure so my instinct says the 2000 bolts would be sufficient for your goals.

    I wouldn't worry about running larger valves until you get the head ported (assuming the shop that's doing the head work isn't porting it). Running larger valves has diminishing returns without increasing bore size as well, it all kind of goes hand in hand.

    You're definitely fighting an uphill battle sticking with a K20! Should be a fun setup when it's all together.
     
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  19. gotovato

    gotovato Silver Member

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    there are 2 versions of the SK2 manifold. The ultra race and the ultra street.

    The ultra race is actually considered a joke for NA due to runner length. It is by all means intended for big boost applications.
    The ultra street manifold carries significant gains over both RBC(ported/unported) and RRC(ported/unported). Now, will you see these gains on a stock k20? no. You need to be operating in the rev range where the gains actually show. On the ultra street manifold, this is above 8000rpm. Significant gains over RBC/RRC in the higher rpm range. For me, this is a benefit. for 98% of k20 builds however youd be absolutely right. RRC for peak power, RBC for meaty mid range and more top end.

    The manifold topic has been well discussed over on k20a.org so i made my decision based on the collective opinion of that forum, plus some 1D engine modeling/simulations.

    The casting is rough that is for sure but its nothing that cant be cleaned up with some sandpaper rolls. i am OK with this decision and stand by it.

    yea my current engine is using an RRC oil pump. Same like the PRB(type S) but it requires NO modification to fit my block so RRC it was. the oil pick up is also at the correct height for my oil pan which is in fact an RRC oil pan(factory on ALL 8th gen SIs). The new engine will also use an RRC. no balance shafts where we're going.

    This was spec'd out for a few reasons. One, consistently running the engine to 9.5k rpm. Far and above what most are running, k20 or other. yea i know that one dude on youtube revv'd his car to 9800rpm once and it was FINEEE yes i know. Im not basing this build on what everyone on the streets is doing. hitting 9000rpm once during a drive is like yea ok whatever..but 10 minutes of lapping, consistently seeing 9500rpm. Its alot. The piston speeds are immense. theres no way around that. If a bolt begins to stretch even the slightest that is absolutely game over for your botton end.

    i am not ASM with my fleet of k24 s2000's that receive rebuild every 10 hours. I do not have sponsors sending me everything and anything i could need. I would like to get at least 2 seasons(say 70 hours) of usage out of this setup before refreshing. I wont be doing a tear down each and every season as thats just not realistic for me at this time. Basically refresh as needed. If the 625+'s offer that added insurance, then its worth while i would say.

    4piston would be one of the worst for misrepresentation of this info. I honestly couldnt care less what happens on the drag strip. Oh you run arp 2000's for a 9 second pass which you make 15 of per year? lets compare that to even a single 1:20 lap. wonder whos spending more time around 9.5k rpm, not me? ok ill go for two laps. See? Just saying. Things that apply elsewhere do not apply here.

    K24 is the number one question i get asked at the track these days. "broooooooooo you running a built k24 or what?"
    No. Ive just spent an unreal amount of time collecting seat time. Equally as expensive as building an engine id say.

    The piston speeds of a k24 at 7800rpm exceed that of this current generations F1 engines at 16,000rpm.
    Are you going to tell me that hondas factory cast pistons are OK with this? again. for a rip down the strip, absolutely. For a mexico pull with the boys, hellll ya brother. For 10+ minute time attack sessions? Please refer to my comment about ASM.

    The side loading is unbelievable as well. You will destroy those cylinder liners quickly on that k24. no way around it. So add that in to your maintenance schedule as well as replacing rod bearings with oil changes. Maybe easy on other chassis but on my civic...youre dropping the subframe. Its just not something i want to get into.

    The added torque is yea ok great, but then what, am i modulating throttle to avoid wheel spin? now i need more tire? hows that work?

    With gearing the k20 will wax a k24 all day long. As i rev my k20 it moves closer to its peak power. a k24, even top of the line 4P build will only rev towards less power. just my own feelings and opinions on the matter.

    Some of this is for reliability, some of it is for science, and at the end of the day, its going to scream like nothing else at the local race track. When the time comes for "more power" a turbo and 8psi is probably all it would take lol.

    stock valves are definitely staying. an RBC cylinder head will flow 300hp NA easily. The issue is header/intake in 99% of peoples builds. nothing off the shelf will flow what you need to make real NA power. Even my skunk2 manifold will receive some light sanding. plenum spacer, and potentially a custom plenum in the future. Engine Sim really loves that plenum volume, or i guess NA engines do lol.
    I dont intend on any porting for this one. basically everyone ever only cares about flow increase at max lift. Is it a secret that the valve only spends maybe 1* of crank rotation at max lift...everything else being opening or closing?

    the factory k20(the good ones anyways) cylinder heads are so successful because of the low lift flow!! so you start mucking about with the die grinder or even the CNC and what are you increasing? Flow numbers for your website? cool. not interested in that


    I am definitely doing something different here! If it works or not, well thatll left to be seen.
    having come from a car with all the power, and literally none of the pace, ive learned that in racing, unless money is no object...less can be more. Less is more. Less time chasing BS and more time in the seat. That was kinda my idea with this one anyways. I have some great help/support from a few over on the k20a forums and thats basically been cheat codes.

    You should see what the dudes in Europe/Japan do with k20s. North America is a total joke by comparison.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2023
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  20. AYOUSTIN

    AYOUSTIN Greenie Member

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