More Suck, Less Starve

Discussion in 'Mazdaspeed 3/6 Fuel, NOS, Meth, & Water Injection' started by phate, Mar 19, 2024.

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  1. phate

    phate Motorhead Silver Member

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    It's a problem with both the MS3 and MS6 - fuel starve under various conditions. If you have a high powered drag car, you'll suck the basket dry. If you have lots of lateral grip, you'll starve the basket if you're running low on fuel. Either way, fuel starve is a problem for many of us.

    Option 1) Run a surge tank/swap in a fuel cell. Fine solution for lots of people, and they aren't terribly expensive. If you don't live by a rulebook, this is a great solution.

    Option 2) Holley Hydramat. That's what we'll be talking about here.


    Check out this video if you don't know what it is: Link






    My rule set doesn't allow surge tanks, so that's out. It does allow fuel cells, but they have to be located within 6" of the original fuel cell location and can't be much smaller than original. With the stock tank being low in the car and made of plastic, it's in a good location and is already very lightweight. We've been running it full for pretty much forever to prevent fuel starve - 16 gallons of fuel is heavy. I'm hoping we can start events with 3-4 gallons of fuel, which would lighten the car by ~70lbs. That's huge.

    On to the actual work - Pull the fuel tank and figure out where the hydramats need to go.

    MS6 fuel tank layout:
    20240316_190855_1.jpg

    With the pump being at the forward position of the tank, and only on the driver's side, it's easy to see where the problem comes in. I'm going to focus on two areas, though, since it's a saddle tank. Acceleration and turning in either direction puts fuel in the rearmost corners:
    20240316_190855_2.jpg

    The saddle tank drives a need to pick up fuel from either corner, so I'll be using two hydramats. You can bend these things around a bit, so I want them to wrap up onto the sides of the fuel tank. I decided to use two of the 15x15" hydramats, sort of like this:

    20240316_190935.jpg

    20240316_190855_3.jpg

    Sort of like this:

    20240316_192258.jpg

    20240316_192446.jpg










    Keeping it secured in that location is pretty easy. You can do this two ways, and I'll be doing it both ways. Holley makes little magnet adapters that sandwich the tank. These magnets are incredible strong:

    20240316_190952.jpg

    Hydramats have attachment holes on the corners:

    20240316_191156.jpg

    What that looks like on the inside and outside:

    20240316_191503_1.jpg

    I will also be adding foam into the tank for two reasons - 1) securing the hydramat and making sure it stays pushed into the rearmost corner. 2) Help prevent fuel slosh. Big box of foam:

    20240314_125110.jpg



    I'll talk about the fuel pump and plumbing situation in the next post.
     

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  2. Rokusek

    Rokusek Are you my dad? Motorhead Platinum Member

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    Nice! I bet these pads will make a huge difference.

    Though, never seen foam added to a tank before. Is that specifically made to be used with fuel?
     
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  3. phate

    phate Motorhead Silver Member

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    Yeah, the foam is compatible with gas, ethanol, and methanol. I picked them up from Speedway Motors.
     
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  4. Easter Bunny

    Easter Bunny Professional Engineer Motorhead Platinum Member

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    so these are basically a surge tank you can put in the gas tank?
     
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  5. phate

    phate Motorhead Silver Member

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    That's not its main functionality, but it does pull from its internal reservoir before it will suck air. The real benefit is that if any part of it is touching fuel, it will pull it in without sucking air from the exposed areas. I think this video shows it better than the first one:

     
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  6. Awafrican

    Awafrican Moderator Gold Member

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    That's freaking cool! Video definitely helps
     
    Awafrican, via a mobile device, Mar 20, 2024
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  7. phate

    phate Motorhead Silver Member

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    Alright, so plumbing this should be easy, amiright? Like most things, it's not.

    Here was my original concept.

    Concept_01.jpg

    The Holley ITFP adapter (16-137) should have been the easy button. I would love to keep the ITFP because it simplifies the plumbing. Issues I have right now:

    1) The Holley adapter doesn't work with OEM, Deatschwerks (DW300C), or AEM pumps (50-1200). Seemingly, it doesn't work with any typical 255lph ITFP that isn't Holley brand - and the Holley brand isn't compatible with E85. The adapter doesn't allow the pump to seat against its O-Ring for the fuel pump inlet - the raised channels/nubs prevent it from seating all the way down.

    I prefer using OTS parts, because it simplifies quick fixes that we sometimes do at events. I could modify the pump by removing the nubs. I could also modify the adapter so it accepts the nubs/channels. TBD on that front.

    20240319_134713.jpg

    20240315_121305.jpg


    2) Pressure regulator. The OEM setup has the pump in a plastic sleeve that has a regulator attached to it. I can't use that sleeve anymore because of the Holley adapter. This is going to require an external regulator that I haven't decided on or figured out how to plumb yet.



    More to come on this front.
     
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  8. phate

    phate Motorhead Silver Member

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    I think we have a winner - Walbro GSS342G3 if anyone wants to venture into this. I'll submerge this and test to make sure it doesn't pull air past the O-ring.

    If the other fittings get here this weekend, I'll plumb it and do some testing.

    20240321_192629.jpg
    20240321_170608.jpg
    20240321_192703.jpg
     
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  9. phate

    phate Motorhead Silver Member

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    We did some testing with the hydramats over the weekend to get a feel for how they worked and if they had any weird issues we need to be aware of. We mostly did this with the mats in a couple large bins, and we just started to test it in the tank.

    1) The hydramat pickup will pull air pretty early if the pickup angle isn't perpendicular to the mounting surface. I think this will be solved by supporting the area with the Speedway foam.

    2) Early testing with the mats in the Mazda tank show it sucking air from what would be the inside half under turning conditions. More to come on this, we need to work with mat placement more before we can conclude anything.

    3) Most surprising to me - the fuel pump can suck some air, but it doesn't transmit to the downstream fuel line unless it's sucking a BUNCH of air. Check out the 2nd video.


    Showing how sensitive the mats are to pickup angle:





    Running 1 dry, and sucking some air without pushing it downstream





    Angle testing 1 mat to see how it picks up from a single corner touching fuel:

     
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  10. Mauro_Penguin

    Mauro_Penguin Punk in Drublic. #BlackLivesMatter Motorhead Platinum Member

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    The fact that it can pick up fuel from just that one single corner of contact, is pretty amazing!
     
    Mauro_Penguin, via a mobile device, Apr 2, 2024
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