Aftermarket rods & stock pistons

Discussion in 'Mazdaspeed 3/6 Engine' started by g00s3y, Nov 26, 2016.

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  1. WetzMS3

    WetzMS3 Greenie Member

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    I understand the difference in PWC allowed by 4032 and the benefits that COULD provide.

    I understand it is believed that 2168 pistons have a shorter service life, but where is proof? I know of quite a few motors that have been in service for plenty of miles on 2168 pistons.

    I'm simply saying that I have not seen real life proof of the disadvantages 2168 pistons are said to have, or the advantages 4032 are said to have. And frankly "OEM piston characteristics" and "excessive detonation concerns" or however SP63 worded it, would concern me more than service life as blown ringlands have become the most common failure on the platform. Why build a motor to replace its known weak points with parts that come with warning labels similar to what should be on OEM internals?
     
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  2. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Anecdotal proof is a very weak form of proof. The bottom line is that everything else being equal, you can expect 4032s to last a good deal longer than 2618s, assuming excellent maintenance schedule, driving habits, alky to stave off knock so it's a non-issue, etc. That's a primary reason people choose them over 2618s.

    Really, the only reason 2618s are so prevalent on our platform was they were the only game in town until recently. Now that 4032s are available, in many cases they're a much better choice, depending on power goals and DD'ing priorities, etc.

    SP63 assured me there'd be no ringland issues with 500whp, even with autocrossing/tracking/etc. on 4032s with their hard nitride coating. And let's not forget, the ringland issues were much more about ring-butting than anything else. You just need to do your homework and run proper ring-end gap. With lots of alky, you have an excellent safety barrier on top of everything else - less ring expansion.

    I recommend emailing SP63 directly, like I did, if you want to know more. They're very confident in the 4032s for 500whp, even with very aggressive driving/tracking/road courses, etc.

    The longer service life of 4032s over 2618s is straight from the piston manufacturers themselves. I'd say taking their word for it is wise. This isn't my opinion, but the characteristics of the products themselves explained by the manufacturers of said products.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
  3. alexwlwsn

    alexwlwsn Gold Member

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    This being said, a few threads I've read through really side with 4032 for DD purposes. link link However, most posts are prefaced with "IMHO" and "Personally". So, personally for me, since my goals were to build a motor to handle 600+whp I went with 2618 and have not looked back. But I feel if I was to build a stock(ish) built motor I'd side with a more OEM like material.
     
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  4. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Yeah, for 600whp, I'd definitely go 2618s. I'd be much more comfortable DD'ing a 4032 500whp motor than a 600whp 2618 motor, though. Different strokes for different folks...
     
  5. DaTFranchise_ms3

    DaTFranchise_ms3 Greenie Member

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    Definitely warming up a 2618 motor is very important, warming up a motor before leaning on it should be done regardless.

    The life expectancy of 2618 is a moot point with the machining and manufacturing anymore.
    I've seen motors lose a piston with very few miles on them no matter what the material is as well and 2618 motors going 100,000 miles, I've seen stock cast piston 4.6 mustangs survive 8-900 hp for tens of thousands of miles, it's all in how it's taken care of as well as how it was built and how well it's tuned.

    With that being said the overall material choice should be in line with your power goels but always remember a bad tune and knock will kill a piston no matter the hp level or material type.
     
    DaTFranchise_ms3, via an iPhone, Dec 1, 2016
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  6. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    I hear what you're saying, but again, anecdotal proof is weak proof. We have no teardown data with precise measurements of cylinder ovaling, etc. All of this "I know of quite a few motors on 2618s and they're doing well" stuff is unscientific hearsay. And how do you scientifically operationalize "well," "good," or "fine"?

    To play devil's advocate, if those 2618s went 100k, then the 4032s may have gone 200k. All of my views on the differences between the two are based upon experts, like SP63, and ESPECIALLY the piston manufacturers themselves, who say time and time again how much longer the service life is on 4032s. Ask any metallurgist and he/she will tell you about metal fatigue. All of that expanding/contracting of 2618s shortens the service life of the build. This is not opinion, but empirical data on the alloy itself. I'm no metallurgist, but I do know it's stuff like this that makes the difference.

    The longer service life of 4032s over 2618s is straight from the piston manufacturers themselves. I'd say taking their word for it is wise. This isn't my opinion, but the characteristics of the products themselves explained by the manufacturers of said products. I repeat this because trusting Mahle, Wiseco et al., over me is wise. I don't pretend to know their products better than they do.

    Additionally, all of that expanding/contracting is what leads to ovaling. Finally, just because piston slap isn't audible doesn't mean it's not occurring; logically speaking, all it means is that it's not bad enough to be audible, or not bad enough to be audible yet.

    Not to belabor this, but for me and my power goals, it's a no-brainer: 4032s all the way. OP has to make a similar decision. But with less than 450whp as the goal, I can't imagine going 2618s. That's just me...

    Mahle manufacturers weighing in:
    http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...-of-mahle-motorsports-reveals-piston-secrets/

    http://www.coordsport.com/blog/2012...rpak-and-powerpak-plus-just-the-power-rating/
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
  7. Mauro_Penguin

    Mauro_Penguin Punk in Drublic Motorhead Platinum Member

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    Silly @WetzMS3 I bet you probably thought blueprinting and balancing made an engine perform and last longer.

    Little did you know it involves the hear say of neighborhood kids and the biased facts of a vendor who sells said products.
     
    Mauro_Penguin, via a mobile device, Dec 1, 2016
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  8. DaTFranchise_ms3

    DaTFranchise_ms3 Greenie Member

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    I understand what your saying and not denying 2618s isn't the best choice for a build looking to go 100k just stating the pros and cons of each material is not what it used to be and no matter what it's made of if not properly taken care of won't last.

    As far as proof, I don't have any except for the motors I've torn down and ones I've seen torn down.

    I do agree that 4032 is the better choice at this power level and overall goals.
     
    DaTFranchise_ms3, via an iPhone, Dec 1, 2016
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  9. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Not at all. Sources listed above, and here are some more:

    http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2005/06/performance-pistons/

    https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2011/06/High-Performance-Forged-Pistons/3700501.html

    Balancing and blueprinting is a given on a quality built motor. It should be expected. Now I will note that 2618s are more frequently indicated for boosted applications (according to the cited sources), but this is likely due to heat management in the CC and is probably assuming 93 or other non-alky fuels. We all know running pure E85 or a crapton of methanol makes this a moot point.

    Again, don't trust me, trust the piston manufacturers. Mauro is attempting to put words in my mouth.

    It's also interesting to note that everything else being equal, 4032s are ~20% lighter. I wonder what @Enki would say about that ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
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  10. DaTFranchise_ms3

    DaTFranchise_ms3 Greenie Member

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    Now for bearings lol, vote for Kings
     
    DaTFranchise_ms3, via an iPhone, Dec 1, 2016
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  11. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    LOL. I have no research-informed opinion on this other than Mark Gibson recommending stock bearings on my proposed 500whp build. I'm sure @Mauro_Penguin and @WetzMS3 will be very happy about this, and love to chime in ;)

    Edit: and remember that an argument about SP63 being biased about 4032 over 2618 (or vice versa) doesn't make a lot of sense, since they sell both. The same will probably be true about their bearing offerings. Now this is based upon my view of them being a reputable, honest shop. If Mauro or Wetz disagree with this, they may suspect bias.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
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  12. DaTFranchise_ms3

    DaTFranchise_ms3 Greenie Member

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    The stock bearings are actually pretty good but I went with kings pMAX.
    [doublepost=1480640693][/doublepost]
    Clevite is what SP63 sells
     
    DaTFranchise_ms3, via an iPhone, Dec 1, 2016
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  13. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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  14. DaTFranchise_ms3

    DaTFranchise_ms3 Greenie Member

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    DaTFranchise_ms3, via an iPhone, Dec 1, 2016
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  15. alexwlwsn

    alexwlwsn Gold Member

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    They actually use King in their builds now. Or that's what Pablo told me a couple months ago.

    At the end of the day, pick a piston, pick a bearing and you'll make more power than stock so long as you or whoever builds your motor assembles it right.
    [doublepost=1480648303][/doublepost]Although that being said I'd recommend OEM under 500whp
     
    alexwlwsn, via a mobile device, Dec 1, 2016
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  16. davychronic

    davychronic Greenie Member

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    for those of you arguing about piston material, here is some good info from a company that knows more about pistons than anyone here or your engine builders and magazines
    [​IMG]
     
    davychronic, via a mobile device, Dec 24, 2016
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  17. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Interesting stuff, but it's CP's statements about their 4032s, and general info about the alloy itself that's been mentioned already. The SP63 aren't run-of-the-mill 4032s. The various treatments they do to their pistons, and the fact they're designed specifically for our platform are both relevant data points.

    I know some people aren't too fond of SP63. Others like them a lot. Personally, I'm inclined to take their word on their 4032s custom made for the MZR DISI according to their specs for our platform over generic data about 4032 pistons by a company that AFAIK doesn't even make them for our application.

    Also, I notice CP mentions nothing about the effect that running a crapton of alky has on the CC temps and piston longevity with 4032s. Heck, @Realgib3 has had guys on stock pistons reliably pushing 500whp with tons of alky.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  18. davychronic

    davychronic Greenie Member

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    CP explains why they rarely use 4032 for pistons, it is inferior for higher boost, higher horsepower. You can defend sp63 all you want, ill bet they have no where near the knowledge and experience of CP and if you would like to visit CPs website you can learn all about the different coatings on pistons as well. Using 4032 is playing with fire on our engines unless you choose a lower compression design that will be less prone to detonation. You can run all the e85 and meth you want and still knock.
     
    davychronic, via a mobile device, Dec 25, 2016
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  19. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Perhaps. But they are way stronger than stock pistons. So what is your opinion on the 500whp builds that've had no issues using stock pistons (again, ask Mark Gibson about this)? Some of the other sources above rate 4032s at almost the strength of 2618s, but with greater service life. Nevertheless, it's definitely worth considering.

    So, it is your claim that simply using a different piston alloy would cause knock regardless of flowing a ton of eth and methanol? That's an interesting claim. It's possible to go far beyond MBT timing with just in-tank ethanol on stock pistons (like a 50/50 mix), which I've seen firsthand. Are you saying stock pistons are superior in this regard, and that 4032s can't do this? Proof?

    Some of these 500whp stock blocks are discussed in here: http://mazdaspeeds.org/index.php?threads/open-tuning-turbo-theory-discussion.3332/
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  20. davychronic

    davychronic Greenie Member

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    No you obviously didnt read what i posted or the page from CPs website. 4032 is stronger and heavier than 2618 and it doesnt matter what piston alloy you use or how much alcohol you inject, knock is possible.

    Im not trying to tell you how to build your engine, I dont care, im just putting information out their from a more reputable source than any engine builder or magazine hearsay. I have CP 2618 pistons and Carrillo pro-h rods in my engine and ill bet it will match or exceed any performance oriented 4032 piston build
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
    davychronic, via a mobile device, Dec 25, 2016
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