Stopping boost creep on BNR S3.

Discussion in 'Mazdaspeed 3/6 Engine' started by Micha, Feb 29, 2016.

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  1. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Any news on this? I'm curious if your results matched mine.
     
  2. Micha

    Micha Yes I love Duckface Thursday MSO Chicks Greenie Member

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    I still creep. I am self tuning my 3 so its going very very very slowly. I need to pull the turbo one day and actually port the wg hole. That might eventually happen in a couple months.
     
  3. Nitr0EngiE

    Nitr0EngiE Greenie Member

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    You should contact @Jason@DizzyTuning because he is working wonders with my car and due to him being a smaller company his rates are insane. If I had this option before I would have done it years ago, well worth the money. I always self tuned but he has been really helpful and make my car better
     
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  4. Micha

    Micha Yes I love Duckface Thursday MSO Chicks Greenie Member

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    I would honestly like to learn how to tune myself. Due to the simple fact I am capable of doing most everything on this car myself. I installed all of the suspension myself. Installed the newest motor by itself. Would like to have a decently quick car that I can say I tuned myself too.
     
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  5. Nitr0EngiE

    Nitr0EngiE Greenie Member

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    I am 100% the same way, if you read any of my old posts on MSF I got upset with people trying to make me use a tuner instead of self tuning, but with my extensive mods, working full time, school full time, risk of tuning issues, maf cal issues, timing issues everything has to be perfect for the car to run good and if its only 100$ to get your car hauling ass its a way cheaper and less stressful thing to buy then say installing a downpipe.

    getting tuned by Jason would do anyone wonders, take it from me I have a virtual Dyno of my car doing 475HP Self Tuned, but Jason is going to get me over 500. Already after the first tune my car feels more alive and is running smoother cruising and WOT. So I really do understand what you mean, everyone would tell me not to tune and just pay the bandwagon of tuners and I hated that, but at this price .... .you cant go wrong !

    I have turned the reigns over to Jason, I do what he says and hes getting results. I take advice on configuration etc. I have probably 60k in this car between buying the car and what Ive done to motor and mods, whats another 100$ ?
    [doublepost=1468775996][/doublepost]to add to that I can still say I self tuned my car to 475

    now its time to let someone do better
     
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  6. Micha

    Micha Yes I love Duckface Thursday MSO Chicks Greenie Member

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    This is my daily small turbo speed anyways.

    My speed 6 I will not self tune that is for sure with aux fueling and all of that.
     
  7. Nitr0EngiE

    Nitr0EngiE Greenie Member

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    No problem, I just know what self tuning is like, not really knowing what your doing and getting vague help from others. I learned now that I was never really going in the right direction and I was doing certain things wrong and with what is getting in the tune now is way better for my car. NO pressure just sharing my experience and trust me I have allot of it since 2008 lol
     
  8. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    TL;DR Cats can stop creep (like I posted before), but they're a very restrictive band-aid on a BNR S3, in my experience. Extended explanation (pardon my redundancy, please):

    I self-tuned for a very long time, but decided to go pro when I went BNR S3. I can attest that I was amazed by how quickly/adeptly Justin could get things dialed in. I was capable of similar results (power numbers), but I had to be a lot slower/more careful because I didn't have one iota as much experience in knowing how the car would react to tune changes with the BNR. I was pretty well adept with K04s due to several years of experience with them, both 93, and ethanol, on Gen 1, Gen 2, and MS6.

    Just to be clear (for anyone reading that doesn't know): creep can NOT be tuned out. It's not a tuning issue; it's a mechanical issue, a function of applied physics. If the WG hole isn't big enough to vent sufficient exhaust gases for a desired boost level, you can be a 0 WGDC and still have boost climbing. In the winter (or colder temps, in general) this is much more prone to occur because the air is much more dense/oxygen-rich per volume, so you'd need to vent even more exhaust gases to stay at any given boost level compared to doing the same thing when it's 100 degrees outside, for instance.

    My solution is just to live with my minimal winter creep by having sufficient fueling with a CM10 spraying 100% methanol, and a Guardian Angel. My tune is ~24.5psi during ambient conditions that allow the stock WG port to be sufficient. I've crept as high as 25.5psi in winter. That's not too big of a deal. If it goes higher than that, the Guardian Angel will shut it down, and I won't go lean or have too high IDCs/spark blowout due to my methanol.

    Supposedly the V2s don't creep. But I' not sure on that. Porting/shaping the WG hole/channel before install would definitely be the best solution. I added a 200 cells/inch high-flow metal cat to stop creep. It'll work. Basically just making your setup less free-flowing will help, like having a smaller intake, adding a cat, and staying 2.5" exhaust can all help stop creep, but I lost 15-20whp just with the cat; still had my 3.5" HTP. full 3" exhaust, and TR8 setup with 2.5" IC piping. After extensive logging to confirm the power loss amount, I ripped that cat back out, LOL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
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  9. Micha

    Micha Yes I love Duckface Thursday MSO Chicks Greenie Member

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    I added a CNT catted DP to help combat the creep but it didn't do anything. The other parts of that air flow is a HTP 3.5 inch intake and a 3 inch CNT exhaust. Both of which I will not get rid of. I love them way too much.

    I will be porting the WG hole next time I pull the turbo off for anything and then will restart my self tune. I like it so far. I am taking slow steps one at a time and it doesn't bother me. My AFR's are good and under control. I get minimal blips of KR on WOT logs. I also ask the major tuners and other people that I know self tune for help. So its not like I am clicking on ATR blind folded.
     
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  10. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Yep, the cat will help, but it may not be enough if you have an otherwise very free-flowing setup. It also depends on how cold it gets where you are. A cat may be fine for winter in the southern state, but not in Canada. Then there's always individual car differences...
     
  11. Micha

    Micha Yes I love Duckface Thursday MSO Chicks Greenie Member

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    I moved. I should update my location. I am now in the Chicago area so it will be super cold during the winter.
     
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  12. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Dang, yep, that'll do it. Our winters here in Dallas/Fort Worth are comparatively much milder.
    Another factor is the cells/inch of the cat you get. A very high-flow 100 cells/inch won't lose you as much power, but won't help with creep very much. A 300 cells/inch will help a good deal more at the cost of power. Even at 200 cells/inch (the happy medium), I was losing ~20whp. I said, oh heck no!!!! Defeats the purpose of getting good hard parts and a BNR, haha. I asked myself, why do all these things for more power, just to kill it with a cat?
     
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  13. Micha

    Micha Yes I love Duckface Thursday MSO Chicks Greenie Member

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    I am not shooting for giant numbers on this car so I don't mind a cat. Looking at just an even 350/350 on 93/e85. This is my slow speed anyways.
     
    Micha, via a mobile device, Jul 17, 2016
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  14. Easter Bunny

    Easter Bunny Professional Engineer Platinum Member

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    What boost are you targeting in your tune and what arr you creeping to? A bigger turbo with a smaller wastegate will have a bottom level of boost that you will see. The stock flange on the bnr is going to make the wastegate smaller than ideal. My recolection on the bnr is that you will need to run at least 18-20 psi to get it into a range where it works properly.

    I still feel that your wastegate isnt opening all the way. Are you certain it is not hitting the inside of the downpipe?
     
    Easter Bunny, via a HTC device, Jul 18, 2016
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  15. Micha

    Micha Yes I love Duckface Thursday MSO Chicks Greenie Member

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    I am certain. I made sure of that a couple times now.

    Honestly, I just started tuning to 20 lbs on 93 octane. For now I will just tune around the creep. Its not horrible. Just eventually want it to not creep but that will be another time.
     
  16. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Many folks run 21-22psi on 93 on the BNR S3 anyways, myself included. Do you know what the maximum level you'll creep up to? I'd assume not, if you moved recently. The first winter will let you know. I've crept up to 25psi on my 93 tune, down here in Texas. I tell you what: my car never felt so fast on 93!!! LOL
     
  17. LOLWRX

    LOLWRX Greenie Member

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    I'm running 25lbs on 93 and 26 on e85 catless with a 3.5" intake on my s3 v1. Two years now no creep. I did pay relentless customs to ceramic coat and port my hotside before installing though.
     
    LOLWRX, via an iPhone, Jul 19, 2016
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  18. Redline

    Redline I done fucked up for the last time. BANNED Greenie Member

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    Yeah, at that level, you probably won't experience creep. My tunes have crept up to ~25.5psi. If you're running over that anyways, then you won't see any creep. It is pretty funny looking in the logs to see that much boost and 0 WGDC though, haha. Perfect example in one of my logs:
    upload_2016-7-19_9-52-40.png
    BTW, running the BNR @ 26 may compromise its longevity, FWIH. It's sort-of like running a K04 at 22 (in the middle of the powerband, anyways; can't keep it there till redline). My tuner likes keeping them in the 24-24.5psi max range. Did your tuner mention anything to you about this?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  19. LOLWRX

    LOLWRX Greenie Member

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    I'm a complete idiot lol I just found one of my old logs idk why I thought it was more but it's actually 24.5psi. I very rarely drive my car in the winter so there is the possibility of creep still
     
    LOLWRX, via an iPhone, Jul 19, 2016
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  20. Memin

    Memin Greenie Member

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    Revviving a old thread!!!
    I am having a over boost situation during the initial spool. The map commands 20 psi and I am hitting 25+ for a few frames(5) on the datalog. My tuner told me to check the ebc lines and the connectors (cap)on the waste gate actuator .I am currently checking the actuator but my actuator has only one nipple that is connected to the ebc is not extra nipples to cap.
     
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